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Title: Origin of the universe: how can an effect have no cause? Post by: toney32 on Oct 22, 2012 We have an intuitive sense of cause and effect. Something cannot happen without a cause. So, what or who was responsible for the creation of the universe? We could say the universe had a cause, who is probably God. God is the uncaused. But how does that make sense? Why did God have to exist? I will appreciate an answer.
Title: Origin of the universe: how can an effect have no cause? Post by: rizzamella on Oct 22, 2012 Energy never dies.
So energy was always here. Title: Origin of the universe: how can an effect have no cause? Post by: rjframe on Oct 22, 2012 Thhere are some things, U have to admit, which are out of scope of the human mind, and they are called the super natural. If we knew them all we would be god ourselves, wont we?
Title: Origin of the universe: how can an effect have no cause? Post by: rj957 on Oct 22, 2012 Solid State Theory allows for a self-generated universe. Observations of "empty" space have confirmed that two mutually exclusive particles will sometimes appear out of nowhere, usually to re-merge and disappear. Very rarely, these particles will diverge, and continue to exist on their own. Over time, these pieces of discrete mass will accumulate, and then aggregate, forming higher particles, stars, etc.. Why does it work this way? It just does. Or you could say, "God willed it." Same difference.
Title: Origin of the universe: how can an effect have no cause? Post by: dataplease on Oct 22, 2012 Well, nobody knows that cause or the effect of which created the universe. Nobody knows what the cause of creation is. Nobody know what the effect of the creation is either.
Title: Origin of the universe: how can an effect have no cause? Post by: riza on Oct 22, 2012 2 things here, one is religious.
If you believe in the idea of the supernatural, why would you apply natural rules to it like cause and effect? Science: There probably WAS a cause, we just don't have the physics (yet?) to describe it. We are working our way backwards. It's like realizing that lightning isn't just light, it's also heat. But if there is nothing to start the fire, how can it be? We learn a little at a time. Title: Origin of the universe: how can an effect have no cause? Post by: Rkamu on Oct 22, 2012 You have to always remember that ideas don't exist in a vacuum. They are logically dependent on other ideas, in a hierarchical fashion.
For example, I could not explain what an "orphan" was to you if you didn't already understand the meaning of "parent." Similarly, asking the question "what caused the universe?" ignores the context. The universe is the background for which explanations and causes are possible. We observe cause and effect WITHIN the universe, but it does not mean that the universe as a whole must have preceeding cause. That's extending something you observe to someplace where it might not apply. I'm not saying the universe is uncaused (I don't think science really knows yet), but if it were uncaused, I would be ok with that. A lot of people have trouble with accepting an uncaused universe, "because something so complex cannot be uncaused," but then go on to accept an uncaused god, who by definition must be more complex than the universe he created...? It seems hypocritical to me. The other common argument is "anything that begins to exist has a cause," but this is blatant question-begging, and follows in the same traditional "god of the gaps" style. The final tidbit that is of interest is the fact that time is not independent of space. We know that from many experiments with clocks on satellites and observations in astronomy. So it's very possible that time BEGAN with the universe. Therefore, asking "what came before the universe?" is like asking "what's north of the north pole?" It could be an invalid question, because there is no "before" to speak of. Bottom line - we don't know for sure yet all the details of the universe's beginning (if it even had one?). But saying "God did it" doesn't actually make us know, it's just a more egotistical way of saying "I don't know." Title: Origin of the universe: how can an effect have no cause? Post by: firebolt on Oct 22, 2012 Well, the "cause" of the big bang right now is well beyond the scope of our physics today, litterally we have no means of describing time and energy scales involved at the event. It may very well have a cause, we just don't have anyway of describing it in a physically meaningful way.
Title: Origin of the universe: how can an effect have no cause? Post by: rockystar117 on Oct 22, 2012 Religious people often use the example that since there is an everlasting chain of cause and effect, there must have been an uncausable cause at the beginning of it all, and this must be God.
But you're right, from a non religious, or even agnostic, point of view, this argument is flawed. Yes, the Big Bang must have been caused by something, but there is no reason outside of faith that really means the uncaused must be God. One could claim that the original uncaused could be all manner of things. Perhaps the Big Bang itself is the original cause. Perhaps this entire universe is in a test tube in a bigger universe, and there is a scientist there who caused it all. We just cannot work out what happened before the Big Bang, and even if we could, there will always be the suggestion that it was all caused by God. Whether or not this seems probable dependent on your own religious beliefs. |