Biology Forums - Study Force

Hi
I have this question.
Do Antisperm antibodies cause DNA fragmentation?

I read studies that state the opposite.

Here they state yes

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26409252/

https://hero.epa.gov/hero/index.cfm/reference/details/reference_id/3163767

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26409252/

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1020525726674




..and here they state no

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20452032/

https://zenodo.org/record/3241507#.YpbBu2TOMVE

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/345694617_ANTISPERM_ANTIBODY_AND_MALE_INFERTILITY



They state the opposite. How is possible? Where's the truth? Science is an opinion?

I would assume they *don't*. They attach to the sperm, which then leads to a cascade of immune responses that destroys the cell, immobilizing it.

(https://biology-forums.com/gallery/45/6_01_06_22_11_05_02.png) (https://biology-forums.com/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view&id=45155)

Thanks for the reply.

And then why the first studies said yes?

I think ROS can cause indirect damage in spermatozoa can survive.

I was thinking the same. Immune response indirectly causes damage to the DNA.

Thanks a lot bio_man.

So Doctor Zini is lying? Has he any conflict of interest?

Post Merge: A year ago

How exactely?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20452032/

According to the article's title: Anti-sperm antibodies are not associated with sperm DNA damage: a prospective study of infertile men, it coincides with my initial thoughts.

When antibodies attach to the sperm, my hypothesis is one of these mechanisms occur:

1) It neutralizes the sperm, causing immobilization or prevent it from fusing with the egg
2) Create large antibody complexes causing the cells the clump together and precipitate
3) Activate the complement system, thereby destroying the cell directly via enzymes
4) Enhance phagocytosis

And then this?

DNA fragmentation was more highly expressed and was 1.6 and 1.3 times more frequent compared with the fertile and the ASA-negative patients, respectively (p<0.001 and p<0.05).

Maybe we can say.
ASA don't cause DNA fragmentation directly, but the consequent immune response inderectly causes it. So the presence of ASA causes DNA fragmentation for enhancing ROS. But how is the second mechanism?

Yes, these are my thoughts, fragmenting the DNA otherwise isn't possible.


High local concentrations of ROS are produced by immune cells to kill pathogens, and in this case, sperm cells. Excess cellular levels of ROS cause damage to proteins, nucleic acids, lipids, membranes and organelles, which can lead to activation of cell death processes such as apoptosis.

But if sperm cells survive and undergo ROS, but not up to apoptosis they' ll get dna fragmentation.Right?

At that point the entire cell will disintegrate, including the DNA. Which accounts for the fragmentation observed

But those sperm cells detected with dna fragmentation seemed to be alive, existing and able to
fertilize an oocyte, but with a damaged dna.
I doubt they observed dead sperm cells with dna fragmented. If they were no more alive and able to fertilize an oocyte they loose the    appellation    of sperm cells.

Can you provide reference to this? How it is possibility to discover fragmented DNA if the cell hasn't been disrupted?

Think about it from a logical perspective: say you want to determine if people inside a house are ill. You must open the door to find out. In the same sense, you need to disrupt the nucleus to learn if the DNA is fragmented.

I'm certain you've misunderstood their findings.

 
It was a deduction of mine from the appellation.


Yes but they become disrupted to detect dna fragmentation. This not invole they are totally disrupted by ROS.

Maybe there are some sperm cells damaged but capable to fertilize an egg, then they become disrupted in lab to detect dna fragmentation.

It happens when they detect dna fragmentation of very old men sperm. Their dna is fragmented, but still capable to fertilize an oocyte.
And the same when they detect sperm cells of smokers whose dna is damaged too.

So old people have fragmented DNA. I wonder how they can test for that? Why would an old person have fragmented gametic DNA? How often does it occur in comparison to a younger person? And most importantly, how does it relate to sperm being attacked by antibodies?

Now I'm the one asking questions :p

I don t know exactely. I imagine opening and destroying the cytoplasm.

For cumulative effect of ROS caused by age.
But it depends. A young person like a smoker could have an higher ros than an aged one, for example.



It's not related.It was just an analogy that demonstrate cause and effect difference.
Cells could be destroyed detecting dna fragmentation, but dna fragmentation could be there per se, not just in the process of detecting it.

Otherwise the statement of admitting x cause dna fragmentstion should be unspeakable.


Then really I have no idea of the process to detect it I admit.
You are an educator in the forum I see..then educate me please :p

Beyond what I've said here is speculation, to be honest. My thoughts are if sperm antibodies do exist, the antibodies lead to an immune response that renders it incapable of fertilizing an egg. I am not concerned what actually happens after that, but common sense dictates that it doesn't have to do with fragmenting the DNA, but collectively rendering the cell dead, leading to fragmented DNA.

That ASA totally destroy sperm cells seem to be an assumption of your.
Anyway even if it happen, sperm cells attacked from ASA just die it doesn't imply that all sperm cells are attacked.
ASA drive just to partial infertility, that means not all sperm cells are attacked or those attacked are not destroyed.

If there are some sperm cells not attacked anyway every immune response cause phlogosis and then it causes ROS and this causes dna fragmentation of sperm cells remained alive.

Do you agree that phlogosis is the key?

Not sure how that relates to this discussion. Mind elaborating on this notion of phlogosis? Before this thread, I had never heard of this word.

hi
phlogosis means inflammation, this causes ros.

You mean ROS causes inflammation, right? Inflammation is part of the immune response. It depends both on the physical actions of white blood cells and the chemicals that they produce: antibodies, cytokines, and the like (which includes ROS). It is not the inflammation causing infertility, but the antibodies themselves.

ROS cause infiammation

but infiammation cause ROS too


immune response cause infiammation and infiammation cause ROS

ROS cause dna fragmentation to sperm which is different from infertility. It could cause a newborn with malformations.

That ^^ I didn't know.

I think so.

When there's inflammation caused from immune response or not, there are always cells that go in necrosis and there are debris that should be cleaned from macrophages.

Macrophages release H2O2 and then singlet oxigen which cause ROS and damages of cells and then dna fragmentation.

Do you agree?

From what I've studies, from my experience, this isn't true

Explain me better.Because I have doubts about this. What you find not true in my statement?

From what I know, ROS act as both a signaling molecule and a mediator of inflammation. But, I can see how it can be linked to a positive feedback mechanism, where ROS leads to inflammation, and inflammation leads back to more ROS. Inflammation causes immune cells to secrete various biomolecules, such as cytokines and chemokines in order to recruit various other immune cells to the site of infection, leading to more ROS. Nevertheless, you'd probably only see something like this in chronic cases.

Thanks.

But inflammation is not caused only by a prior ROS. If someone punch your eye it drives to inflammation.No?

I put these statments.Just tell me if they are true or not.

Immune response always causes ROS.

ROS always causes dna fragmentation.

Correct, I was just stating one of many pathways.


Negative. The innate immunity that utilizes macrophages, neutrophils, and dendritic cells are the key players that utilize ROS. However, since the innate immune response is linked with the adaptive immune response, a lack of ROS in the immune system can cause disease states that impair a person's ability to fight against foreign invasion.


Causes cell death, which means the DNA gets damaged and digested in the process. However, ROS does NOT target the DNA as I have stated earlier in this thread.