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SoTired67 SoTired67
wrote...
Posts: 10
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3 years ago Edited: 3 years ago, SoTired67
I have a few questions regarding these articles over here. First and foremost, allow me to share the articles with you so that you are aware what I am referring to.

"Honey bee has two fathers, and no mother": https://zoologicallyobsessed.tumblr.com/post/180617284154/a-honeybee-with-two-fathers-and-no-mother

https://www.forbes.com/sites/grrlscientist/2018/11/28/a-honeybee-with-two-fathers-and-no-mother/#740bc6f84405

They claim that two male honey bees created a zygote, that two sperms "fused" and created a zygote.

> Genetic analysis revealed that nine of the 11 gynandromorphs had either two or three fathers. Astonishingly, one gynandromorph -- the seemingly normal female control -- actually had two fathers and no mother -- an event that could only have resulted from sperm fusion.

> “The female bee that had two fathers created by the fusion of two sperms is the first reported in haplodiploids and is an interesting phenomena considering that attempts to fuse two sperm in mammalians have not [been] found to be possible,” Ms. Aamidor elaborated in email.

> This study begins to expand our limited understanding of the truly unusual ways that sexual animals can fuse their genomes.

This other one is the actual paper described in Forbes: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2018.0670

> Bee K was female and diploid throughout, but lacked any maternal nuclear genetic material. We propose that K was created by a fusion of two sperm nuclei, resulting in an androgenic diploid bee. This is the first report of an individual created by the fusion of two sperm in any Hymenopteran. K was able to develop to the adult stage, showing that a bi-paternal bee is viable ... The viability of K suggests that there are no impediments to the development of a bi-paternal female honeybee, as has previously been shown for bi-maternal

My questions are, was it really two "sperm" or two "eggs" fusing or was it something else? In one bee, these people claimed "there were no maternal genes, so it must have been two males creating it", while in the other bee, these people claimed that "there were no paternal genes, so it must have been two females creating it",

But there could be other reasons as to why one bee "had no maternal genes", while the other bee "had no paternal genes", right? What other reasons could it be?

They simply "propose" it's this way, and never observed it occur. They assume it, which means their "two sperm or two eggs fused to create a zygote" is unsubstantiated.

It could be something else, right? But what else would result in "a bee without maternal genes" and "a bee without paternal genes", other than "two males creating it" and "two females creating it", respectively?

The actual article highlights that it's androgenesis that resulted in "a bee without maternal genes" and gynogenesis that resulted in "a bee without paternal genes".

Is that it? Were androgenesis and gynogenesis the reasons there were so-called "bees with two fathers and no mother" and "bees with two mothers and no father"?

They claim zygotes "created" from androgenesis "have no mother", and from gynogenesis "have no father".

Don't see how that is the case given in androgenesis egg is still used, and in gynogenesis sperm is still used meaning the zygotes do have a "mother" and a "father" respectively.

It's just that the egg and sperm become deactivated and do not "contribute genetic material", respectively. Doesn't mean they are not necessary in the "reproduction" and play no role, right? It's not as if a male "creates" a zygote on its own in androgenesis, without a female, and it's not as if a female "creates" a zygote on its own in gynogenesis, without a male, right?

It's false to claim the female plays no role in the "creation" of zygote in androgenesis, and the male plays no role in the "creation" of zygote in gynogenesis, right?

Which means the zygotes do have a "mother" in androgenesis, and a "father" in gynogenesis, and it's false to claim the bee from androgenesis "has two fathers and no mother" when they do have a "mother" and the bee from gynogenesis "has two mothers and no father" when they do have a "father", right?

To claim the zygote from androgenesis has no "mother", erases the role of the egg. The two sperm in the bee I mentioned above couldn't have formed a zygote on their own, and had to use an egg in the process of androgenesis, therefore the zygote does have a "mother", albeit a "mother" whose genetic material was deactivated by sperm, right?

To claim the zygote from gynogenesis has no "father", erases the role of the sperm. The two eggs in the bee I mentioned above couldn't have formed a zygote on their own, and had to use a sperm in the process of gynogenesis, therefore the zygote does have a "father", albeit a "father" whose genetic material was deactivated by egg, right?

Last but not least, does fertilization occur during androgenesis and gynogenesis? Or do sperm and egg use each other without fertilization? If the latter, please explain how ...
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wrote...
Educator
3 years ago Edited: 3 years ago, bio_man
First and foremost, I wouldn't trust a thing from that website, especially after reading:

"#LGBTinSTEM"

Since when does science, technology, engineering and mathematics have anything to do with the homosexuality movement?

I won't comment on pseudoscience or science conducted by people that lack the ability to be objective.

Pass.
SoTired67 Author
wrote...
3 years ago
First and foremost, I wouldn't trust a thing from that website, especially after reading:

"#LGBTinSTEM"

Since when is science, technology, engineering and mathematics have anything to do with the homosexuality movement?

I won't comment on pseudoscience or science conducted by people with lack the ability to be objective.

Pass.

Have you taken a look at the other two links? My post was mainly centered around them, not the first link from which I discovered the second two articles: https://www.forbes.com/sites/grrlscientist/2018/11/28/a-honeybee-with-two-fathers-and-no-mother/#740bc6f84405

And the actual paper described in Forbes: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2018.0670

wrote...
Educator
3 years ago
Thanks for clarifying, @SoTired67. Just hate it when people use and abuse science to fit whatever agenda they're trying to promote, which is the feeling I got from that first link

My questions are, was it really two "sperm" or two "eggs" fusing or was it something else? In one bee, these people claimed "there were no maternal genes, so it must have been two males creating it", while in the other bee, these people claimed that "there were no paternal genes, so it must have been two females creating it",

Have you read the article in which Forbes is referencing? I'm looking at it now, and this gets discussed in the discussion. Read the paragraph that begins with:

"The individuals studied here shared a common maternal origin..."

Attached...
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SoTired67 Author
wrote...
3 years ago
Thanks for clarifying, @SoTired67. Just hate it when people use and abuse science to fit whatever agenda they're trying to promote, which is the feeling I got from that first link
My questions are, was it really two "sperm" or two "eggs" fusing or was it something else? In one bee, these people claimed "there were no maternal genes, so it must have been two males creating it", while in the other bee, these people claimed that "there were no paternal genes, so it must have been two females creating it",
Have you read the article in which Forbes is referencing? I'm looking at it now, and this gets discussed in the discussion. Read the paragraph that begins with: "The individuals studied here shared a common maternal origin..." Attached...

The frustration is understandable. I too hate it when people misuse science to push an agenda, be it the "straight" agenda (quite a popular agenda), our gay "agenda", or the "trans" agenda.

From the article:

> The individuals studied here shared a common maternal origin. Therefore, it is likely that their gynandromorphy and androgenesis had a common cause. A mutation in a meiotic mechanism, such as disrupted microtubule formation, may cause a delay in pronuclei migration ...

My guess was this has to do with androgensis. I see my hunch was right.

> ... If the maternal pronuclei do not migrate at all, then two sperm may fuse. Both gynandromorphy and sperm-fusion androgenesis may therefore occur as a result of the same cytological phenomenon

The "fusion" of two sperm generated a zygote, they claim. This is highly confusing. Two sperm can not "create" a zygote on their own, correct?

"Two haploid cells can create a zygote. Two sperm are haploid, and they can create a zygote", I have been told. Isn't there an issue within that statement? Doesn't it embody a fallacy? What fallacy, I am not sure. It does sound fallacious nonetheless.

In androgenesis, sperm "hijack" egg cells to create a zygote. They deactivate the genetic material of the egg cell, and become the sole source of genetic material.

And you have mentioned androgenesis and gynogenesis are both asexual "reproduction" in another post.

That doesn't mean the egg cell is useless in androgenesis? Or that the sperm cell is useless in gynogenesis?

During (sperm-fusion) androgenesis, without the egg cell, sperm couldn't "create" a zygote on its own, let alone with another sperm cell. And during gynogenesis, without the sperm cell, an egg couldn't "create" a zygote on its own, let alone with another egg, correct?

Why, then, do they claim the zygotes "created" from androgenesis "have no mother", and the zygotes "created" from gynogenesis "have no father"?

As per my post, within which more questions await answers:

> Don't see how that is the case given in androgenesis egg is still used, and in gynogenesis sperm is still used meaning the zygotes do have a "mother" and a "father" respectively.

> It's just that the egg and sperm become deactivated and do not "contribute genetic material", respectively. Doesn't mean they are not necessary in the "reproduction" and play no role, right? It's not as if a male "creates" a zygote on its own in androgenesis, without a female, and it's not as if a female "creates" a zygote on its own in gynogenesis, without a male, right?

> It's false to claim the female plays no role in the "creation" of zygote in androgenesis, and the male plays no role in the "creation" of zygote in gynogenesis, right?

> Which means the zygotes do have a "mother" in androgenesis, and a "father" in gynogenesis, and it's false to claim the bee from androgenesis "has two fathers and no mother" when they do have a "mother" and the bee from gynogenesis "has two mothers and no father" when they do have a "father", right?

> To claim the zygote from androgenesis has no "mother", erases the role of the egg. The two sperm in the bee I mentioned above couldn't have formed a zygote on their own, and had to use an egg in the process of androgenesis, therefore the zygote does have a "mother", albeit a "mother" whose genetic material was deactivated by sperm, right?

> To claim the zygote from gynogenesis has no "father", erases the role of the sperm. The two eggs in the bee I mentioned above couldn't have formed a zygote on their own, and had to use a sperm in the process of gynogenesis, therefore the zygote does have a "father", albeit a "father" whose genetic material was deactivated by egg, right?

> Last but not least, does fertilization occur during androgenesis and gynogenesis? Or do sperm and egg use each other without fertilization? If the latter, please explain how ...
wrote...
Educator
3 years ago
The "fusion" of two sperm generated a zygote, they claim. This is highly confusing. Two sperm can not "create" a zygote on their own, correct?

Yes, but only under this condition. How often does that happen in nature? It's like saying if the could combine the the sperm of a monkey with the egg of an elephant, we'd form a monkey-elephant hybrid IF AND ONLY IF {insert something impossible happening, e.g. "maternal pronuclei do not migrate at all"}.

Quote
That doesn't mean the egg cell is useless in androgenesis? Or that the sperm cell is useless in gynogenesis?

In this particular example, they're useful. But we can't use this mechanism to explain all examples of androgyny and gynogeny.

Quote
Why, then, do they claim the zygotes "created" from androgenesis "have no mother", and the zygotes "created" from gynogenesis "have no father"?

That's their interpretation. If an egg cells is used as a "vessel" for androgenesis to occur, then you're more than welcome to interpret it otherwise.

Quote
> It's false to claim the female plays no role in the "creation" of zygote in androgenesis, and the male plays no role in the "creation" of zygote in gynogenesis, right?

As per this species, you're right.

Quote
> Last but not least, does fertilization occur during androgenesis and gynogenesis? Or do sperm and egg use each other without fertilization? If the latter, please explain how ...

Fertilization is the union of an egg and sperm. Technically, the idea of two sperm producing a zygote doesn't fit the definition of fertilization. I'm getting a sense of cognitive dissonance just thinking about it.
SoTired67 Author
wrote...
3 years ago
The "fusion" of two sperm generated a zygote, they claim. This is highly confusing. Two sperm can not "create" a zygote on their own, correct?
Yes, but only under this condition. How often does that happen in nature? It's like saying if the could combine the the sperm of a monkey with the egg of an elephant, we'd form a monkey-elephant hybrid IF AND ONLY IF {insert something impossible happening, e.g. "maternal pronuclei do not migrate at all"}.
Quote
That doesn't mean the egg cell is useless in androgenesis? Or that the sperm cell is useless in gynogenesis?
In this particular example, they're useful. But we can't use this mechanism to explain all examples of androgyny and gynogeny.
Quote
Why, then, do they claim the zygotes "created" from androgenesis "have no mother", and the zygotes "created" from gynogenesis "have no father"?
That's their interpretation. If an egg cells is used as a "vessel" for androgenesis to occur, then you're more than welcome to interpret it otherwise.
Quote
> It's false to claim the female plays no role in the "creation" of zygote in androgenesis, and the male plays no role in the "creation" of zygote in gynogenesis, right?
As per this species, you're right.
Quote
> Last but not least, does fertilization occur during androgenesis and gynogenesis? Or do sperm and egg use each other without fertilization? If the latter, please explain how ...
Fertilization is the union of an egg and sperm. Technically, the idea of two sperm producing a zygote doesn't fit the definition of fertilization. I'm getting a sense of cognitive dissonance just thinking about it.

I think in all forms of androgenesis, the egg is useful, and in most forms of gynogenesis, the sperm is useful, which means zygotes from all forms of androgenesis do have a "mother" and zygotes from most forms of gynogenesis do have a "father"?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5031619/

> Androgenesis is a form of quasi-sexual reproduction in which a male is the sole source of the nuclear genetic material in the embryo. Two types of androgenesis occur in nature. Under the first type, females produce eggs without a nucleus and the embryo develops from the male gamete following fertilization. Evolution of this type of androgenesis is poorly understood as the parent responsible for androgenesis (the mother) gains no benefit from it. Ultimate factors driving the evolution of the second type of androgenesis are better understood. In this case, a zygote is formed between a male and a female gamete, but the female genome is eliminated.

There are only two forms of androgenesis. In one, eggs without nucleus are used as vessels. In another, eggs with nucleus are used as vessels, and it's after the formation of the zygote that the sperm deactivates the genetic material of the egg. It would make no sense to erase the role of the egg, just because its genetic material is deactivated.

In either of the two possible cases of androgenesis, sperm needs an egg, and can not form a zygote on its own, or with another sperm, making the egg useful, don't you agree?

As for gynogenesis, there is one form of gynogenesis, parthenogenesis, in which an egg doubles its own chromosomes and forms a zygote on its own, without a sperm. The rest of gynogenesis need a sperm as a vessel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gynogenesis

> Gynogenesis is a system of asexual reproduction that requires the presence of sperm without the actual contribution of its DNA for completion.

Much like sperm "hijacking" eggs in androgenesis, eggs "hijack" sperm in gynogenesis. The presence of each gamete is required in all forms of androgenesis, and most forms of gynogenesis, for a zygote to be "created", don't you agree?

In the bee example I've provided, although the maternal nucleus did not migrate, the egg cell itself did. The two sperm used the egg without nucleus as a vessel and "created" a zygote, which means the two sperm could not have "created" a zygote on their own. The presence of the egg cell was necessary, even if its genetic material was deactivated.

The zygote bee did have a "mother", and it would be false to claim the bee has "two fathers and no mother". It erases the role of the egg cell, and gives the false impression that two sperm could have "created" a zygote on their own, eventhough that's impossible, in all cases. Androgenesis further proves two sperm can not "create" a zygote on their own, because the egg cell should be there, even if it's nucleus is not there, don't you agree?

You're right that fertilization is the "union" of sperm and egg. Two sperm or two eggs "fusing" with each other can not be fertilization and sexual "reproduction" by definition. It would be an oxymoron, a contradiction, to claim otherwise.
wrote...
Educator
3 years ago
Quote
I think in all forms of androgenesis, the egg is useful, and in most forms of gynogenesis, the sperm is useful, which means zygotes from all forms of androgenesis do have a "mother" and zygotes from most forms of gynogenesis do have a "father"?

The definitions for mother and father don't have the same meaning anymore, so it's hard to answer such a question due to semantics. If your definition of mother is one where eggs are associated, then I can graph what you mean.

Quote
Androgenesis is a form of quasi-sexual reproduction in which a male is the sole source of the nuclear genetic material in the embryo. Two types of androgenesis occur in nature. Under the first type, females produce eggs without a nucleus and the embryo develops from the male gamete following fertilization. Evolution of this type of androgenesis is poorly understood as the parent responsible for androgenesis (the mother) gains no benefit from it. Ultimate factors driving the evolution of the second type of androgenesis are better understood. In this case, a zygote is formed between a male and a female gamete, but the female genome is eliminated.

Excellent clarification here.

Quote
In either of the two possible cases of androgenesis, sperm needs an egg, and can not form a zygote on its own, or with another sperm, making the egg useful, don't you agree?

I agree completely.

Quote
Much like sperm "hijacking" eggs in androgenesis, eggs "hijack" sperm in gynogenesis. The presence of each gamete is required in all forms of androgenesis, and most forms of gynogenesis, for a zygote to be "created", don't you agree?

Makes sense.

You should have referenced the rest of the article that states, "The paternal DNA dissolves or is destroyed before it can fuse with the egg. The egg cell of the organism is able to develop, unfertilized, into an adult using only maternal genetic material. Gynogenesis is often termed “sperm parasitism” in reference to the somewhat pointless role of male gametes."

Interesting stuff!

Quote
The zygote bee did have a "mother", and it would be false to claim the bee has "two fathers and no mother". It erases the role of the egg cell, and gives the false impression that two sperm could have "created" a zygote on their own, eventhough that's impossible, in all cases. Androgenesis further proves two sperm can not "create" a zygote on their own, because the egg cell should be there, even if it's nucleus is not there, don't you agree?

This cycles back to mother/father question earlier.
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