I'm working on my masters degree in a bio-related field.

What you need is an expert in this topic. Not all biologist study zoology, keep that in mind.

I am aware of that, thats why my first post was to draw the attention of a mammalogist (as shown), since this site said it had a 100k members, I'd assume there was atleast one or two here, but guess not. Didnt mean to be rude or too blunt, just looking for facts to gather, stuff thats credible and not fallacies.

As the post the other member stated, that people have their own opinion already in their heads, I completely am against that, an opinion can no way or form change a fact, the bear is bigger...thats a fact, the lion has more skill thats a fact. The data posted on that first link shows lions have more advantages of:


1.) Stronger bite force
2.) Stronger paw strikes
3.) A better protection at the trachea via 2 foot long mane
4.) Faster in agility and dexterity
5.) More athletic can jump 3x their body length and height,
6.) More fighting experince and more skill of evasive manuvering
7.) Phsyicologically more aggresive and game
8.) Has killed bears more than vice versa
9.) The better hunter, hunts animals 2-10x his size
10.) Better fighting tactics. 3 point stance

Compared to the bears advantages:

1.) larger in size/weight
2.) Better grappler and wrestler
3.) Larger claws


These are facts, for atleast whats on record so far, in terms whats on hand via credible sources. Those also are the guidelines in what to look for, if more info can be gathered in those specifics, like more documented times of conflicts, more info on their bite forces, feats, attributes ect, than a verdict can be reached and be fools proof to the fallacie and misinformed sources.

Saying the bear will win because hes fatter, over and over and over on the web, doesnt mean its any more credible of being a fact, its just a mis-conception towards the average opinion, if the weight transmuted into amplifying all of his other attributes and by-passed counter-superior attributes of his opponent, than he wouldnt have been killed almost a 150 times just because he has the highest recorded amounts of body-fat as a predator, like he said, they adapt to their enviorment, 3 scientist stated grizzlys adapted to be prone to obesity, its a healthy obesity in their function to survive winter-hibernation, but it doesnt take away the negative toll on its bio-function towards the body, as the other article stated the bigger they are the more sluggish, slow moving, hinderd they are in movements and all-around function...if a obese human has all types of health problems specifically in a athletic stand-point, like fatigue, lack of conditioning ect, then I dont see how people can always jump the gun and only ever pick the largest recorded bears to go into combat and not its healthy canidate specifically in fighting.

In that case as to your question, do I think a lion would over-power a grizzly? (in points to overall, and not just pushing and grappling strength) My answer is still yes towards the average weights of eaches species, (even as low as 6/10 is still more than vice versa)  if you wanna talk maximum weights, then I could possibly favor the lion even more since the heavier a human gets doesnt equate into anything towards combat:

Picking the heaviest humans...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_heaviest_people

Doesnt mean they are going to beat the most skillful humans:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_heavyweight_boxing_champions


Fact.

Grizzly bears evolved big because it was advantageous to their survival as a species. A grizzly bear isn't "obese" or "overweight" like the examples you provided. Grizzlies are functionally large, it helps in their survival and reproductive value. A very fat man wouldn't be able to beat a professional MMA fighter, however, an adult grizzly bear could definitely defeat another grizzly that just came out of hibernation. In a fight between two different animal species, many factors come into play, including their size whether you like it or not. It's not the only factor, but it certainly plays a role. Of course, that's not always the case in the animal kingdom. I've seen videos where a honey badgers pick a fight with a group of lions and survives the confrontation. Grizzlies, however, are HUGE, and have huge features to back up their size. I'm having a hard time distinguishing if you're just a forum troll or something who lacks social cues because your tonality is very negative and I don't like it.

Here's a picture of a grizzly paw: https://biology-forums.com/index.php?article=1139

Wow! And who are you again? The guy who isnt majoring in the study of bears, you must have missed the info that showed from universitys that state bears are prone to obsity:


"Healthy obesity'" "Prof Brian Barnes, director of the institute of arctic biology at the University of Alaska Fairbanks, said: "It is exciting to see research being done on interesting comparative species, like grizzly bears, that have evolved adaptations to extreme conditions."
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-28639884
 
This week on The Wild Life, it's all bears, all the time. Dr Lynne Nelson, assistant director of the Washington State University (WSU) Bear Center, stops by to chat with Jason about how bears can eat a lot while remaining healthy ... and then sleep for five months.
http://www.earthtouchnews.com/natural-world/natural-world/the-wild-life-ep-7-dr-lynne-nelson-on-bears-obesity-and-diabetes

Thats why some of pregnate brown/polar bears are extremely obese: But once again ,obesity is healthy state for bears. So ,"obese 400-500 kg grizzly""Bears can eat like pigs, hibernate for months and still be healthy."http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/08/05/338045480/why-fat-grizzlies-dont-get-diabetes-like-we-do
 


lol A lion cant eat like a pig, because he must kill dangerous game almost every single time, not gorge on fish that cant fight back, I would suspect you can eat as much fish as you like and not worry about expending fat-burning energy or fatal injuries, than have to stalk a herd of buaffalo and then full-fill the task of over powering a lethal advesary who can kill you like nothing.

In one hand I have somebody who has no academics saying his word is the truth, that bears cant be obese, and in the other, I have 4 scientist who specifically go to universitys and have wild life studying them academics....Hmmmmm? Nah, I'll go with the masters-and Ph.d people. Whats this about there size? Its over, we know they're averages and those are the ones to be debated, find out what the word average means, some grizzly populations are as small as jaguars...not every grizzly is a goliath 2,000+ lb animal, nor are those healthy specimens specifcally for a grizzly. Again, I like how you capatalized HUGE...yeah, fat, not muscle, the link showed just how much muclse is stronger than fat, but like the obisty rant, you probably didnt read that too, did you know that a lions mane is 2 feet long on each sides? Not even the worlds largest polar bear at 2,200 lbs has a neck width that large, a lions appearance in the front specifically the maned area is one of the largest at maximum size, hence when the two are standing next to each other, the lion appears just as big in the front, because the mane increases the lions size...circumference...almost 200%:

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17524&PN=9

In other words a lion with a super large mane will look  the same size as a 1,000-1,500 lb bear in the front. Funny, you enphinsize HUGE, only because of the fat content, it doesnt apply to visual size, the bear will be thinking hes fighting a advesary just as large as he is, and would be intimidated by the fact this same sized animal is moveing vastly faster then him, and poses more striking strength and bite force, with countineously superior game/aggressiveness (will to protect his cubs), your excuse has already been crushed by having almost 150 smaller animals beat big bears, and to further complete the refute, heres a bigger bear who not only sh@# him self (yes, watch the bear in the middle scene sh@# all over the ground, a sign of distress and passiveness), then he backs down from the smaller bear:



Those bears have no skill other than laying on each other and doing minimum damage, no paw blows are being thrown, no heavy bites, no tearing off limbs as most fable in as their strength, their movements are pathetic compared to how explosive and fast moving lions are. All because bears rarely fight, they sleep 5-7 months every year, while lions fight every month within their or prides, or train an hone there skills in all male coalitions.

What the hell does a honey badger have to do with anything? Is a honey badger killing a lion in a fight more than vice versa? You state you dont like my negativity, yet I dont like your idiocy, your motives, your sources, your lies, your contradictions...this isnt personal this is buisness, or in other words education, I am not fond of passing on false fallacies and missinformation, that shames the word science, I merely quote the quotes of people who have credentials of answering these qustions, I dont hold my self as an expert as the role you preseume to wana play.

And give me a F'in break, yeah all your posts are see-able and only select few of mine arnt? Then explain to me why my post has it stating on the bottom of the other page as....

EDITED BY BIO_MAN

C'mon, if you dont want me here, then dont adress with falsified info and just say theres no one qualified academically to answer these questions, because you playing expert is just a laugh and a half, and shows your bias...and again, its not buiness just education in its pure'st merits of the truth.

Definitely a lion. Although I love bears,lions have the skills and abilities to take out a bear, and they tackle dangerous game like giraffe, wildebeest, and even elephants on an almost daily basis. Bears on the other hand, are primarily herbivores, and although they may be larger and stronger, just don't have the predatory skill and machinery of a lion.

@Mounthofthebeast

I agree, the lions consistant skill is over weighing the argument of obese bears, bears being obese follow the same patterns as some humans (after all we both are omnivores) so similar attributes can be linked. You can even compare an obese 1,000 + lb human to a more athletic sumo wrestler, these sumo guys are conditioned in sports-like activity, work outs, training ect, thats why most dont breach a certain weight pass 800+ lbs, they roughly stay around 400-600 lbs, and thats still the extreme, hence a sumo professional human, would beat a over stuffed and normal eat all day obese person.


Its easily seen that a 2,000 lb brown bear is obese to its limits wont be any where near a conditioned 1,000 lb bear in skill/attributes, nor does it benifactor them survival wise all the way, there is a video of a female choosing a smaller male over the dominant one leaded by one of the foremost bear biologist ( who the same guy weighed siberian tigers as shown to only being in the 300-400 lb range as average), the other article in the link stated the same thing that she-bears prefer smaller ones then obese ones due to fittness capabilitys.

I dont see how anyone can deny that either, the salmon run is basically an unlimited supply of food that requires no energy consumption to use, the same as some tigers and lions can reach 1,000+ lbs in captivity, because their food supply is unlimited with no energy consumption needed.

On the other hand, whats interesting is, almost every single bear weight is stated by biologist all around that they are only estimated, that means its unreliable, if 1,500 + lb bears can be estimated and genuinely weighed with a scale, than I see no reason why old hunting records cant be used as well:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:f1c1o_8PEl4J:http://www.newspapers.com/clip/797278/col_edgar_daniel_boone_attacked_by_lion/%2BEdgar+Daniel+Boone&hl=en&gbv=2&nfpr&spell=1&&ct=clnk


Should I start saying and repeating a hundred times, because lions can reach 900 lbs, they are HUGE, thats all the reason I have to give, its a roll, lol no, because it cant even be confirmed or noted as useful, since I would back a smaller 500 lb lion with a bigger mane than a massive 800 lb lion with no mane.

In terms average, the lion consistantly is rounded out by natural selection, constant fighting promotes only the toughest and most skillful fighters to reign and remain dormant against threats. There is no animal that faced more threats inter-specific wise than lions, out in the open you are exposed to every threat there is, and you dont have to be a carnivore to be a threat, rhinos, hippos, buffalos, in huge migrating herds would no dought assult a lion if they feel threatened.

In their averages, a 420 lb lion in prime of life, already with over 20+ fights under his belt from sparring with brothers, cousins, uncles and other relatives, will have alot more skill than a solitary 800 lb bear, who probably only fought one or two fights for non-essential things, the bear becomes big to be a bully, a lion becomes skillful so that he can protect his pride against murading male coalitions, or worse, rival prides, its no different from a heavy weight fighter champ trying to defend his title (he must constantly train and be kept game), while the bear, a sumo wrestler isnt endowed with as a diverse training as MMA fighter, the obese ones arnt even a profession, they're just big bullies, mike tyson would drop any world record obese man, thats a garentee.


A example of a Prime Bear =  Sumo yokuzuna
A  example of a Prime Lion = A UFC Champion

A grand champion sumo man, only has two tactics in his method of attack, pushing/knocking down his opponent, and palm slaps (much like how bears do Coincidence?), a champion ufc fighter has many methods of attack, able to knock out his opponent, choke out, break arms and legs, over whelm with skill and evasive manuvering, ect (as lions can fight off multiple opponents with every type of fighting method, Coincidence?). More advatages means more chances of winning. The same as the lion has more attributes and statistical advantages than the bear, specifically in...fighting.


The reason for compileing facts, is to reach a verdict to see who can survive (and win) against the other in a fight, not who can survive the elements of weather and out last the other by scavanging and salvaging different types of foods. The same as this isnt exclusively a pushing contest, grappling contest, wrestling contest, this is a anything goes and utilize all their capabilities to see who wins in a fair fight.

I am not here to pump out and repeat the lion wins more than vice versa, just to grow the information at hand and stay in the lines of facts., more so false links and poor opinions.

Way to indulge in group-think, bozo. Mindless people usually do lol

A grizzly bear would destroy a lion.

Who gets to pick the arena?

Thereeee you go, thats the guy we wanted to see...you know...you dont have to hide behind your alts and play this bias mod charade, I've seen it  hundreds of times, mods/admins dont like that they are proven wrong and they go on a rant and bias moderating spree of belittling their superior in facts.

Choose any arena you want, a open savannah, a dense forest, a compact jungle, a small cage, what ever, the lion is multi-tasked and diverse in all walks of land combat.

destroyed is more of what you were edging to say from the start, right...yeah, because bears are HUGE, (even though visually the lion is nearly his equal at 4/5th size difference overall), bears ADAPT and its a ROLE, and look at bears PAWS, XD XD XD yeah, that sounds like things a mindless person considers as facts in why a bear would DESTROY a lion. lol

Nice job clown.


The photo of the bear is no different then any other photo of them trying to prove the size, its closer to the camera then the body is. The lion would smack dead any sized bear you wish to phantom, with one blow, both breaking brown bears backs and crushing in their skulls, as shown 4 documented cases of those already happened, cant imagine how much other times this has happened thats just waiting and ebbing to be found to prove you clowns wrong that size isnt everything in a fight, it just shows you are afraid of something bigger, not the lion.

I'm not a moderator, but you are indulging in group-think when you make those assessments. Regardless, the image of the paw, relative to the woman's head, is quite large. Keep in mind that lions are NOT known for their stamina. Despite their persistent when hunting down prey, hyenas for example oftentimes snatch away meals, and given their endurance, lions can't keep up.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=hFbJWMh9-OAC&pg=PA288&lpg=PA288&dq=%22lions+have+little+stamina%22&source=bl&ots=XrXQVKV1cu&sig=lnwIuG13oDL5mtKIffJ_Lojq9qU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fq9SVZ36BdCcygTC8YCYAQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22lions%20have%20little%20stamina%22&f=false

That's just another advantage bears have. I guess obesity comes in handy for these killer animals.

Yeah, whatever....

Is this a running down his opponent match? (which specifically sunquist was reffering to, not pro-longed combat specifically with lions) even the most athletic fighters would have poor stamina against a olympic sprinters and long distance runners, so you didnt prove anything... hence I dont see how you brought in any fights that prove a bear can fight for hours and hours, a fight with a lion is not suppose to last long in terms inter-specific predators, its quick, swift and gruseome...just like how the lions killed 3 of the bears with one blow of the paw, it didnt take hours it was over in a mere minute.

I would even argue that a lion can last longer than a big bear because he can endure more punishment via mane (lions can be bluddgered constantly and keep coming at you, thats what gameness is, the video shows a small bite on the ear was enough for the bigger bear to shi't him self and submit), further conjoining stamina, what is the bear gona do that tires out the lion like that video showed? They just lay there, they dont actively pounce, summersault, flip and spring around like lions, I dont see no great energy being needed to keep consistant, funny how almost every one bills male lions as lazy and yet when the females struggle to down a buffalo, the lion blitzes in and downs him in less than 10 seconds of contact:
http://slickdeals.net/?pv=&au=&sdtid=7849831&sdpid=75968545&sdfid=7&lno=2&trd=https+www+youtube+com+watch+v+jF&u2=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DjF5eDmDPUDk


Much like how he killed the polar bears with a single crunch to the neck, the polar bears bite was billed at 1,200 lbs of psi, the hardest bite for the lion was 2,200 psi, thats nearly double the bite strength, the difference between only able to tearing skin, and the other crushing and snapping bones.


group-thinking? what group of scientific academics in bears and lions, are you... part of? you want me to just disagree with Ph.D people just because..........still waiting? Just because what? You wanna give an extra fallacie to your bias opinion non-educated on the matter opinon? Nah...sorry, again, buiness, not personal. I dont go making up that lions can shoot lazer beams and fly like a super hero just because I want to know the truth. Thats the difference between me and you, I wanna know the truth, you just want the bear to win, and you will say anything in such, stupid things like DESTROY.

lol In that case the donkeys DESTROYED the grizzlys, with more than several accounts of the actual meaning of destroyed, the donkey that was hired to protect the guys live stock kicked a grizzly to death, the examination of the dead bear showed a shattered jaw, kicks all over the body, boken bones ect...thats F'in destroyed, whats a bear to do? Lay on the lion and bite him repeatively? Thats not destroying, thats called pathtic showmen ship. Thats why in UFC when someone is on the ground and not doing anything, the crowd Buuu's the fight, and the ref is forced in to seperate them and stand them up.

Again, endurance and stamina can almost be conjoined, but they are different, a lion probably developed the mane for that specific reason, as there over a 100 sources I just linked to have stated....the lion over so many years of evolution was beated to the ground, pounded out, ganed up by hyenas, wild dogs, herds by the thousands, and fought amoungs themselves more than any other predator, to where a leopard, cheetah, tiger or any other cat would run an abondan his cubs, the lion will stay and fight, to the death, hence now with his highly evolved armored mane, he can take more punishment than any other land predator, hence even if the bear has greater stamina in combat (which you didnt prove at all with any sources), the lion can still out last the bear in the fight with superior Endurance > Stamina.

Post Merge: 9 years ago

And lions fail to keep up with hyenas? Show me one video of hyenas taking a kill away from a prime conditioned full grown larged maned male lion, just one? Keep up, you sure:



More like ran down, in water...which is 10 x harder than running on land. Last time  I checked, grizzlys get dominated by wolves:


30+ hyenas dont challange a single prime male lion:


And wolves arnt anything worth noted as powerful as hyenas, 30 hyenas or 30 wolves would rape any sized bear instantaneously...everything about the lion is built for combat, the hyenas know the lion is coming when he roars, (which can be heard 5 miles off), a bears roar is around half that distance and strength, a roar full blasted in the face is senough to intimidate his opponent when they are fighting, a puma already has been documented killing bears more than vice versa, and most eyewitness accounts state when the puma attacks the bear, its not a showmenship of a bi bear going to town and offereing back gamed fighting, its just a bear in a screaming mess being mauled and ripped to ribbons.

lol According to all the times mountain lions have killed the bears with examinations of the bears dissembowled with their inner'ds patruding out, a puma ready to fight to the end with a bear, is like a kid opening up his christmas presents, the bigher boxs didnt stand a chance (i you get my drift lol). Pumas arnt nearly as powerful all around as african lions are, george keller a wild animal trainer in his book...Train this...he mentions a lion with one stroke decapitated his puma...to where teh bear fails misserably, the lion wins hands down...again in feats what do bears have as their track record? Because lions have been documented killing specifically other predators in captivity and in the wild, of crocs, jaguars, pumas, siberian tigers, bengal tigers, sumatran tigers, leopards, black bears, grizzly bears, polar bears, russian bears, sloth bears, siberian bears, european brown bears, is the only one shown to be able to take on and kill multiple leopards at once, multiple tigers at once, multiple bears at once.

Thats a title worthy of... King of the beast, if I ever heard one.

What is the bears track record? A few tigers, some non-specific lions and pumas, and a little bit of his own kind? And those animals show somewhat to kill the bear more than vice versa, or atleast be in equaled grounds accounts wise. In the feats department its a massive stomp with lion over the bear.

I believe every athlete is conditioned at the sport they're an expert in. A soccer player probably wouldn't be an effective football player, and vice versa. I know personally because I'm a sprinter and a long distance runner. I'm also very athletic, but when I played in a 20-minute soccer match, I was gassed after five minutes. Therefore, I'd say you're using a bad analogy here.


What are the evolutionary advantages of a lion's mane? According to many sources, a male lion's mane serves to make him appear larger and more intimidating to rivals and more attractive to females. How would this extra hair help him endure punishment from a bear? I don't see a correlation.


Groupthink is when you allow others do the thinking for you. Probably not something you should admit or point out. You're using the power of numbers approach to make your point. I think the difference between you and I is that you're a big cat lover, whereas I'm neutral towards this topic. Your arguments are more biased than mine. By the way, you're using just as much fallacy as I am, so take a step-back and re-evaluate the things you're saying too, like this...


Could you provide credible citation that gives merit to this idea?

By the way, I'm still waiting on that screenshot where supposedly your posts where partially hidden.

You're the one that added in the bad analogy by bringing in this made up soccer bs, sunquist was specific, he stated a lion cant run full speed for a long distance, in that case do you have any sources that state a bear could run that very distance he specified the lion did and....not be tired? Bad analogy on your part, since I was refuting Long distance runner (what sunquist was talking about running down prey) //fighter/fighting (what I was talking about) hence it pairs up with exactly my points...unlike your non-related sports you incoherently brought in.

Group think? I actually had a feeling the lion would win that was based on the similar things the scientist, biologist, animal trainers who'm I've brought in, since this isnt rocket science. I thought it up by myself, unlike you who are both groupthink, and also a common...sheeple, one un-able to make any decisions on your own, so you used fallacies and made up stuff, then tried to tie them in to facts that were non-related to an actual fight...yeah, like the bears nose and sense of smell, is better...thats a fact...yeah a fact that doesnt protain to fighting. In other words, you are a bowl of contradictions, you are the groupthink, the hypocrite, you are also the more accurately the sheeple, master manipulator, the liar.


If the lion is king of combat head to head, the tiger still holds the King of ambush, (which I agree with), who the tiger is shown out-fought by the tigress, (both can ambush a bear quite fine) yet the tigress couldnt get pass the lions mane:

Then the tigress flew at "Romeo" and tried to catch him by the throat. He shook her off with one toss of his head; she tried for the shoulder hold. She missed it by an inch. Either clutch secure, and a tiger will hold one say the trainers, until it is killed.

http://s6.zetaboards.com/Leo_Tigris_Elite/topic/1090148/1/

Heres the another source reported at the time:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19021023&id=ZHtIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=riAEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5346,4838059&hl=en

and another where a tigress failed to get pass the mane:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2293&dat=19370131&id=Gt4mAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WgIGAAAAIBAJ&pg=2083,1380537&hl=en

The lions mane is sources as many didfferent things:

- Intimidates rivals, the bigger the mane the more imposing
- Protects against lacerations and bites
- Softens blows of blunt force lessening the effect
- Attracts females letting them know they are fit and dominant
- Chokes breathing patterns of the biters forcing to let go to breath
- Can make the opponent misjudge the distance to get there in fast pace movements
- Shield the lion from the elements, keeping his striking muscles in tune, via shoulders and arms.


Even the most famous biologist noted the lions mane saved a lion from a tiger, which the tiger couldnt by-pass, and killed the lion by ri ripping up his un-protected underside....whats his name again? Ohh yeah, Charles darwin, a guy that would shi't all over your petty reputation of self-given points on this forum in terms who is more credible and reliable. lol Funny I link a source that protains 50+ accounts of bears being torn to shreds by dogs, wolves, pumas, and others, and you retort with no animals that have by-passed a specifically large maned lion, then all of a sudden, bears are still known as indestructable and now a pride of lions couldnt even endure a honey badger. XD XD XD

The true science behind the mane relys in its durability, a single strand of hair is nothing, a few ounces, still nothing, but when you have alot of it and it intwines, this forms a braided enhance stronger form of tensile strength, in which case hair at that point can be stronger than steel:

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1693

Since the lions mane is still not as thick as rope, itsnot as durable, but compared to your average short tiger or bear fur 1-5 inches, the lions 12-24+ inch mane has the same braided tensile strength effect beyound tigers/bears capabilitys of by-passing easily.


Correlation? Didnt you see the...compilation... of sources on the mane? This has all been explained in that link, but yet again, el ignoranto, didnt read it and only likes hearing him self talk... no the difference is quite clear, and we both know this...I havent stated anything that overhypes the lion, everything stated is well cited and sourced as credible, you on the other hand used DESTROYED even with all your fail attempts to bring any sources that matches mines, what was the other? Ohhh yeah, grizzlys killed bulls and lions with a flick of the wrist, oooh I mean the lion parnell and sultan was the ones doing the beat downs and the bulls nearly every single time tossed and gored bears to nothingness as shown. lol Fallacy? Lets take up P.hd people over some bias chump who calls out useless retorts. Yup thats you in a nut shell, I on the other hand will stick with facts.


Did you not read what I stated, this computer doesnt have that feature. And would it matter, its either a glitch (a crazy glitch only aimed at useful stuff specifcally my post and no others), or a bias mod that cant handle the truth, so he has to hide behind his alts and wine and cry with nothing but fallacys, either way I still wouldnt be able to change anything, but since I know my argument is more solid, your butt hurtness doesnt bother me.

Reason I mentioned a bear's sense of smell is because it would prevent the lion from sneaking up it. Other smaller bears, like black bears, I don't see winning. Furthermore, the grizzly bear has long claws (up to six inches), so if it were to connect a haymaker, the lion would get injured quite bad. I mentioned fatigue earlier because bears are great pace runners and can run relatively for very long distances. Now I'm not sure if this would be effective in a fight, but stamina plats a role - generally, grizzlies have an impressive level agility for its size. A male lion is sluggish compared to it. In fact, I can imagine a lion backing down as soon as the bear stands up on two legs as a means to intimidate. It's true that the lion goes for the neck to bring down its opponent, but also keep in mind that a bear's aimed bit can finish off its prey also. You essentially have two heavy-weights going at it. Can you say that a lion will win nine times out of ten, probably not. No way to find out.

PS: I told you I'm not a moderator, and I'm in no way competing with Charles Darwin - I've been around for a while and I answer questions for fun. Your insults are not funny, keep it up and I'll stop responding to your emasculating remarks.

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What...are...you...talking about. Haymakers? Thats like saying throw a sumo wrestler in the ring with mike tyson, and the sumo guy will start dipping, dodging and throwing over hooks, upper cuts and haymakers, XD XD XD Sumo guys fight that way because that is the specific given rule, and because the bear is biologically prone to fighting his own way, doesnt mean bears too will start sumersaulting, bobbing and weaving and start throwing haymakers just because the lion is, again, no matter how much times you repeat this garbage...I am not taking your opinion over people with PH.ds, try to show a video of a bear throwing a haymaker than, with devastating lacerations and a tremendous amount of blunt force.

Because I read the whole abstract of the biologist, one even stated out of 300 eyewitnessed attacks on sheep, not one blow was thrown, THREE HUNDRED, this means it would be out of the norm for a bear to throw a regular jab, let alone a haymaker. Lets just start talking about all different types of animals and saying they will throw haymakers...a elephant would haymaker a bus down, a fish would practice haymakers on a sea shell, a croc is the ultimate haymaker, look at his deadly claws. XD XD XD The only blow that is actually mis-concived is the downward sumo slap they throw, but this has no proportional value in force...just stick to lacerations by embracing and wrestling, because your assumptions is hysterical.

You wanna compare then? In order for a boxer to throw haymakers both accuratly and effectively, he must wnna preffer that method first, and then he must train...and train, and train, and train, this is what mike tyson did, something that would not only be consistant but improves over time, the 7 months the grizzly is sleeping, the lion is either rolling in a all male coalition and training, and training, and training, (fighting each other over rank and food),  fighting rivals, trying to take over prides, killing inicent by-standard lions both male and female, a lions life is pure war as a bachelor, even on the flip side, all a pride owner does is fight off these same muraders who are trying to kill his cubs to get access to the females. Hence they are both conditioned and experts at throwing blows and evasive manuvering...again, whats the difference between me and you? You have empty opinions and fallacys, I have both experts opinions and....wait for it......Facts.

Lets see how consistant the records shows who actually is documented throwing haymakers:




A animals trainers statement. (try to find a eyewitnesser to say this for the bear)

Personally. I am more afraid of a lions paws than I am of his jaws. Talk about uppercuts, left hooks and that sort of prize-fighting fancy shots! A lion is wonderfully clever and he does it without gloves. A lions claws take hold like a fish hook. A tiger or leopard gives with the paws a side slash that cuts like a knife.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=861&dat=18991027&id=9kJSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=uzUNAAAAIBAJ&pg=831,1149737&hl=en


(From smallest animals to biggest in order of the lions feats)


Lion hits dog so hard the brains and guts come flying out:

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn86071158/1895-01-30/ed-1/seq-4/#date1=1836&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=fight+lion&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=14&state=&date2=1922&proxtext=lion+fight+&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2


Lion breaks female hyenas back with one blow:

https://books.google.com/books?id=zLbL6qAu0RsC&pg=PA140&dq=male+lion++paw++hyena&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kvwRVPL9FIi9jALykIGIBw#v=onepage&q=male%20lion%20%20paw%20%20hyena&f=false


Lion kills hyena with one blow:

One of the hyenas, engrossed in the feast and slower to retreat than his fellows, was killed by a single blow from a lion's paw.
https://www.google.com/search?q=One+of+the+hyenas%2C+engrossed+in+the+feast+and+slower+to+retreat+than+his+fellows%2C+was+killed+by+a+single+blow+from+a+lions+paw+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=U0HEU7_mJ4K6oQSd74LYBw&sa=N&gws_rd=ssl


Lion breaks leopards back with one blow:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2206&dat=19550908&id=Rzo0AAAAIBAJ&sjid=IesFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1047,2002636&hl=en


Lions paw blow flys man 15 feet, and kills another with one blow:

Stone flew 15 feet through the air, while the lion sprang to its feet and made off. A native bearer ran up. The lion killed him with one blow of its paw
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/30989359/


Lion kills female jaguar with a few blows from the paw:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1144&dat=19210912&id=UkYbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=sEkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6579,3977562&hl=en


Lion hits lioness all the way across the cage with one blow of the paw:

A full grown lioness is a large animal, and more than proportionately heavy; yet I once saw a lion, with the very slightest imaginable wave of his paw, dash his mate from the corner of the cage, where she was rearing against the bars, and send her sprawling on her back as if she had been a little lamb
http://books.google.com/books?id=RHIVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA55&dq=african+lions+paw+blow&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SCx_U_GfFsTdoAS9oYDgDg&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDgU


Lion kills siberian tigress with a blow from the paw breaking its back:

"detroit finally hit her with his paw and broke her back"
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1787&dat=19350916&id=qhseAAAAIBAJ&sjid=U2QEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3109,5557564&hl=en


Lion breaks another male lions back with one blow of the paw:

broke his rival's back with one swipe of his paw during a performance yesterday. Several hundred persons, including many children were witnesses to the killing.
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1454&dat=19560513&id=4GNgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9HENAAAAIBAJ&pg=5191,2470922&hl=en


Lion crushes tigers skull with a blow from the paw:

They grappled and rolled and roared and bit each other. And finally in a split second the tiger dropped motionlessly to the ground. Far too quick for the eye to see, but just at the right moment, this lion, delivered a well-timed blow to the side of the tigers head, and crushed his skull. The lion is a mighty beast.
http://www.google.com/search?ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&source=hp&q=like+Judy+and+I+were+probably+discussing+this+at+dinner+last+evening.+%5Blaughter%5D+Seriously%2C+have+you+ever+wondered+what+would+happen+if+a+lion+and+a+tiger+actually+got+in+a+fight%3F&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=1


Lion kills zebra with one blow of the paw:

https://books.google.com/books?id=GEYEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA46&dq=african+lions+paw+blow&hl=en&sa=X&ei=py1_U4aRK47xoAT7jYKABA#v=onepage&q&f=false


Lioness crushes black bears skull with a blow of the paw:

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=37&dat=19020306&id=dA8FAAAAIBAJ&sjid=cigDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3652,1785493&hl=en


Lion caves in donkeys neck bones with a blow from the paw:

https://books.google.com/books?id=zGpWAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=lion+devoid+donkey&source=bl&ots=zUKlhU11CM&sig=u2MF2dz2yqPdEt3WLylIMPvCxn8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fPZTVYmYCMHfoATX-IBo&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lion%20devoid%20donkey&f=false


Lion kills horse with one blow of the paw:

'These he had endeavoured to dislodge, but, insufficiently armed, he was compelled to beat a retreat, after losing one of his horses by a single blow of a lion’s paw.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Eb0wAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA94&dq=african+lions+paw+blow&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uTJ_U-uxE8P9oAT_-4CIAQ&ved=0CAgQ6AEwATiCAQ


Lion kills european brown bear with one blow of the paw:

The bear, not liking this kind of salutation, growled, and endeavoured to parry it. This made the lion angry when, with one- fell swoop, with his paw, as the story goes, he laid the bear dead at his feet.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Io5NAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA195&dq=african+lions+paw+blow+bear&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6zR_U8D1HNDdoATcioFI&ved=0CAYQ6AEwADgU


Lion breaks grizzly bears back with one blow of the paw:

A few years ago an Englishman who had hunted lions In Africa ventured, upon a visit here, to express the opinion that an African lion could whip a grizzly in fair fight. His' opinion was so warmly disputed by partisans of the grizzly that he determined to settle the matter. He brought a full grown lion to this Park and it was put into a cage'along with a grizzly. The lion at once sprang to the attack leaping upon the bear's' back and trying to dig in with claws and teeth. The grizzly sincerely shook him off. The lion again sprang and was again shaken off. A third time it was shaken off, but this time the lion, annoyed, gave it a swipe with one of its paws, and broke its back killing it with a single blow
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jq9HzcFXElMJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/1489912/+The+Iola+Register+1933++lion+fights+grizzly&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jq9HzcFXElMJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/1489912/+The+Iola+Register+1933++lion+fights+grizzly&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


Lions paw blow shatters ox's back limb to peices:

But whatever the lion's object, the result of the attack was sufficiently patent, and I have never seen clearer evidence of the marvellous strength of these brutes than the terribly crushed condition of that ox. The great bones of the leg were splintered and the flesh a mass of black pulp and extravasated blood; and yet there was scarcely a claw-mark upon the skin,—all this injury had been done by the mere force
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA405&dq=blow+%22force%22+lions+paw&ei=r8frVPeiEMfdoATOv4HIDg&id=otZp3FqL0swC&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text


Lion smacks down and stuns a female eland with a blow from the paw:

http://books.google.com/books?id=hpo_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA7&dq=open+with+a+growl,+a+mighty+lion:+he+seemed+to+ricochet+from+the+ground,+so&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SrocVMXpDYjYoASKqIK4AQ&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAQ


Lion kills camel with one blow:

https://books.google.com/books?id=h742AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA192&dq=Lion+paw+blow++crocodile&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fCFUVdaxMYr6oQSi9ICoAw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwBDgU#v=onepage&q=Lion%20paw%20blow%20%20crocodile&f=false

Lion smacks down a male eland with a single blow of the paw:

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/1a/96/ad/1a96ad6c1f091102231bef6a49f50079.jpg

http://blog.africageographic.com/africa-geographic-blog/files/2013/12/lion-and-eland-attack.jpg


Some visual proof:


Lioness with paw knocks over tiger:




Lion knocks out another male lion with one blow:




Lion knocks down a tiger with a blow from the paw:




Lion knocks down tiger 3 meters away with one blow:




Try to find out what a haymaker is, since the bears physiology wouldnt even be able to emit this type of full body motion punch, there are many type of whacks, there are jabs, hooks, under hooks, over hooks, flurrys, combos, sumo slaps, not just haymakers, there are videos of wolves shrugging off blows from bears, bears throing sumo slaps and not even drawing blood with these 6 inch digging tools (unlike lions who have it retracted to keep it razor sharp. Shank > Butter knife)...the lion puts a massive spring into his blows (unlike tigers who just stand up and throw weak pitty patty flurrys), this amplifys the amount of force, whats this crap lions are sluggish? Lions are part of the panthera genus, there is no such thing as a sluggish panthera, you can find the most dexterious bear species there is, and they wont be even half the manuverability and athletics of the lion.

The bear will intimidate the lion by standing up? yeah, when you find a 19 foot tall bear that can rival the giraffe, then you can start talking, even young sub-adult males can kill a bull giraffe all on his own:
http://lionguardians.wildlifedirect.org/2011/03/05/lone-lion-kills-a-giraffe/

Lions are use to seeing big tall animals rush at them, their eco system has the biggest herbivores on the planet...dont you know these kinda of stuff? Kids know this. Atleast half the conflicts I posted as the first link showed bears stood up to fight the lion with the text even stateing this...."the lion did not care for this method"...which if you ask me is a stupid method, these are quadripeds, fighting on their opposite venue will only hinder their movements and full capabilitys, try and fight on your opposite natural posture...go, try it, fight on your hands and knees, punch when you are on all fours, (opposite of bi-pedal), a bear standing bi-pedal cuts his manuverability in half and makes him lose almost all his balance, a 4 legged table is vatsly more sturdy than a 2 legged table, it wont take that much force to knock it over, in fact...didnt several of the polar bear accounts state the lion bowled over the bears? All, facts, not poor assumptions based on nothing.


Bears have impresive agility? Show me a 1,000+ lb bear moveing as nimble as the smaller weighted grizzlys, you think what applys to a average bear is the same for an obese bear. (even a rhino has empressive agility for its size, probably the same turn ratio and even with and added 5,000 lbs over the bear) Running fast and movements in fights again is two different things. I can imagine a lion backing down from many things, but if we are talking about the extreme, endangering his cubs, or viciously assulting him, we are looking at the worlds strongest striking land carnivore all of a sudden forgetting what he is made for and the best at? Fighting....thats all they do, you are tryna take a big bullie from a college or highschool, a kid that is abnormally big, 300-400 but not sloppy, and putting him in the ring with a heavy weight champion of the world like mike tyson 200 lbs, and think the in-experinced bullie who has only picked on several smaller than him, is gonna beat tyson in his prime of life with already atleast 25 wins to his name...all knock outs...

lol

Bears are... HUGE...lol, the average grizzly bear is around 700 lbs, the lion has been documented more than several times smacking down, stunning and killing oxen, camel and eland sometimes with one blow, basically 700kg animals as the norm, thats twice as big as the average bear. I cant say 9 out of 10 just yet, but when I find more accounts of lions killing bears, I'll be sure to let you know that it went up from the basic lion will beat a bear more than vice versa because he has more advantages in fighting, better skill, more agile and athletic, superior striking and biting strength ect.